Jenn: Y'all! It's the first episode. And I couldn't have asked for a better first guest than Erin Fox. Erin is a software engineer at ConvertKit, a frequent conference speaker, and an active member of the react and React Native communities. Today, she joins me to talk about one of the most stressful parts of being a software developer: interviews. we talk about why interviewing in tech is particularly stressful, how to handle rejections and why like dating, you should never commit too early.
[intro music]
Jenn:
I thought it would be fun if we did a what I want to call a Boolean interview, which is where I'm going to ask you a question. and end it with "true or false"? And you're going to tell me your answer if it's true or false. So the first one I have is: technical interviews are the worst, true or false?
Erin:
True. The quickest true, I can get to you.
Jenn:
There was not a remote hesitation, just to say, absolutely. It's miserable.
Erin:
There's so many variations of them as well. And there's some that are less on the true spectrum. But the first one that came to mind when you mentioned that was like parse the string, or what would you do with this data? Do it now in front of me? And that is, yeah, even you're stressed out.
Jenn:
I feel my heart rate start to rise as you even talk about it.
Erin:
Yeah, I think, especially when you're applying for jobs, even one of those is a stress ball. And when you're applying anywhere and everywhere, because you need a job, or you just need to get out of the work situation that you're in, and to just have to do those one repeatedly. It's very soul crushing, because it's not valid of my skills and who I am and how I work on a team. It's, it just makes me feel like worthless, stupid, even though I'm not.
Jenn:
Oh, and we we are going to get in that with some further questions. Absolutely. I do want to hit on a point, though, that you and I both did not come into tech from a computer science background. You and I both worked in other fields before this. And I don't know if people who came in with a computer science background have ever interviewed in a different type of situation, a different world. But we have. Tell me tell me how different the interviews are from your previous experiences to now when you have to do a developer interview a technical interview.
Erin:
So my work history before switching careers to be a software engineer was primarily social media and paid distribution campaigns online. So I would a B test different headlines and a B test different pictures to see which one was more clickable. It's like, you know, those really annoying ads at the bottom of an article that nobody clicks on that was new to me. So maybe you clicked on but so yeah, I remember for that job, I had to come up with by read article and wrote 10 headlines and found a couple of splash images that I would use, and I got the job. And it was more of I want to say real world. It's exactly what I did. After that, and it was the interview was just a conversation of like, my history, like my writing philosophy or my social media philosophy, and it was more of a conversation of me and how I work. And then if you were to flip it and do it for a software engineer, it's it's almost like, like, it makes me actually have this weird vision of like you like pull out your brain. And just like set it aside, and like, that's all they want. Like, they just want to know if you can solve this algorithm. They don't want to know everything else about me like they don't want to know how I work or what my goals are. That was kind of a tangent.
Jenn:
No, that's, that's what we want to hear. Because they are, they're very different. And what you just said about you just take your brain out, and they just want to see that, they don't care anything about your personality. Which leads me to my second Boolean question, you can accurately determine a developer skill level in an interview, true or false?
Erin:
False.
Jenn:
False. I agree.
Erin:
So I just - the pressure is real. Like, when I'm a - what is it fight or flight? I'm a flier. I fly far and quick. Like I'm not a fighter.
Jenn:
It's fight, flight, or freeze. Oh, yes. I know, there's a third one that I think explains a lot of what happens in technical interviews for me, which is that my mind goes blank. Do you have that experience?
Erin:
Absolutely. Yeah. You freeze, you forget your name, you just like, don't know what a string is. It's just it happens. And some people are so great under pressure like that. But a majority of people aren't, and I'm one of them. So absolutely false on that one.
Jenn:
I also am not good. being watched. I'm not good in that sort of like unnatural pressure setting. I'm not good without access to Google. I'm just not like, I will forget things. And I need to remember how they work. Because our field, you could never remember all of it in your head. But interviews kind of act as if you're supposed to. I do remember one time sort of bringing this up to some other engineers, who were at the time they were interviewing at Fang jobs, which are like really difficult interviews, and not indicative of who you are your skill set as a person. And I brought up that I wasn't a very fast, like coder in that way that like it takes me a little bit longer to gather my information, and then write something out and then decide if I like it or not. And their response to me was that, then I was I was worth less. Actually, it was they were like, well, they need you to be able to perform under pressure.
Erin:
It's tricky, because people will want to work at at those places. But in reality, you just have to, I don't know, my philosophy with that is your first step of knowing about the company is their interview process, because hiring should be the most important thing any company does? And if that's what they're putting off, and then there's the challenges that they're doing, then they're going to attract those kind of people. And if you're not that type of person, it's not a good match. Yeah,
Jenn:
that is a very good point. I also from my own experience, I've been in this field, eight-ish years. And I have never had to work with an algorithm under a high pressure, pressure like situation.
Erin:
Yeah, like put a flashlight on you. But like solve this now.
Jenn:
Lives depend on it.
Erin:
Yeah, it's like move this pixel three times now.
Jenn:
Tell me the O notation of this. The big O, come on. Yeah. If you don't tell me the correct one, children will die.
Erin:
Oh, my gosh, yeah. And another thing I was going to mention is, I haven't worked for a company where it was like a life or death situation, if you couldn't figure something out, like, worked at Major League Soccer, worked at The Wing, and I'm now at ConvertKit. It's like, I'm not writing code to save lives.
Jenn:
It's not like you are not in writing the code to someone's pacemaker.
Erin:
Exactly. Yeah.
Jenn:
And if prod went down, like, well, one, we probably didn't have anything to do with it. Because it was it was more likely, like something happened on the back end. But if it was a front end issue, roll it back, man. It's not that hard. It wasn't rocket science. Just roll it back. We were - it was fine. Yeah, exactly. I don't I don't agree with the high pressure situation of interviews. I think you're, I think you're just testing for the wrong things. If you're if you're relying on that. Completely.
Erin:
Thinking about it stresses me out because
Jenn:
This might be a stressful conversation. And I'm very sorry.
Erin:
Yeah, it's starting to get there. You're just bringing back all the memories. You're feeling it all come up again, and you're like,
Jenn:
Oh, no, we're reliving all the bad experiences. Don't worry. I think we'll get to also maybe a cathartic place later on this conversation, something where we feel like a release of the stress Also, neither of us have to deal with this right now. Thankfully, we're gainfully employed.
Erin:
Very fortunate. But isn't it so sad? That even talk about it you get stressed out about it?
Jenn:
Yes. Like, you are correct. That is sad. That is so sad because other people in other industries do not get this stressed about like, interviews are always a stressful situation, I don't think they have the type of responses that we do to them. And also, like, what you said earlier about, like, they don't really care about your personality, or who you are. If you can go into an interview and just be yourself, it relaxes you.
Erin:
Absolutely, yeah, I think. Yeah, and if you if you do feel relaxed, and have that connection with the people that you're interviewing with, then it's like, a member of this company. And now I want to, like you, like, move them over on my air table to possible
Jenn:
An Airtable - So that's what you use for tracking?
Erin:
Oh, my gosh, I, I have a souped up air table, I can't share. Because there's ratings on companies like five star, one through five star I know it gets into Wow. But I was just interviewing with so many people I needed to keep track of who was who from what company, their name, like their Twitter, sometimes the job posting will go down and I didn't have the link or the text to it. And I they would contact me and be like, we want you to plot our we'd love to talk to you. And I'd be like, shoot, what? Who are you? So yeah, air table, I think, yeah, they helped me manage the stress level of my interview.
Jenn:
It can also be stressful in terms of this is a this is actually a good problem to have. But there are many opportunities. There's there's no lack of opportunities, I do think it's harder. Obviously, if you are new to engineering, and you're just getting your first role, that's a different experience, obviously. But once you've been in the field for a little bit, once you're open to a new company, you tend to get a lot of responses, that doesn't mean that they all work out or that they're all a good fit, or that they're even really looking for a person of your skill set. But you get a lot of opportunities thrown your way that you have to like, figure out where you actually want to interview.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely. And you also need to think about what direction you want your career to go in. Like, if you are bored of on the front end, don't take another front end role, or piggyback enroll and see if you actually like it. I think having somewhat of a little bit of a future plan, I'm not the type of been like what's your five year plan, but have some kind of an idea of what you want to learn. And I think a lot of people that are companies that I've interviewed for are also looking for that as well of getting your aspirations and match up with what they need. And what's like a big key thing that I learned.
Jenn:
Absolutely, they're they're looking for, if you're going to fit into where they're going as a company tech wise to. I also think that five year plans for tech is just a will for front end, in particular, a five year plan is just come on, what we don't know, we don't know what's gonna be happening in five years, this whole thing could go under we don't know,
Erin:
My goal? In five years have five more years of experience.
Jenn:
In five years, I will just I will have been a developer for five years. I don't know what you want me to say. Okay. Another question. take home coding assignments are better than in person coding challenges, true or false?
Erin:
You mean, like, you go and chat with someone, I guess now. But or you would go into the office and do it? Yeah,
Jenn:
Yeah. Anytime that you're doing like an in person, just coding. You're coding someone's watching you code or your pair programming together, or whatever it is.
Erin:
Yeah, no. I mean, unless you're going into a workplace where you are pairing with someone, every single minute that you're working, then maybe you have to do that kind of interview. But more than half, I wouldn't say like 80% of the day that I'm coding. It's just like me and my laptop like searching Google in copy and pasting. I mean, learning on your own is, it's like that's, like the description of a developer. I think it also, if there's no time limit, which is another story, but if there's no timeline on that takeover, it's usually you can do it at all. Like the right pace for you. So if it's like, if I'm using if I need to hit the Twitter API, like, let me get an hour to read it and understand it, where it's like, someone's watching me read the Twitter API for an hour. I'm not comprehending anything. Like,
Jenn:
I'm just watching you trying to figure out the Twitter API that sounds like a horror movie to me.
Erin:
Yeah.
Jenn:
it's a public API, figure it out in front of me.
Erin:
Hmm, it's just an added layer of pressure. And then you also have to like, talk, your thought process? And it's like, I haven't even done the thinking yet. Like, how can I tell you what I'm thinking before I even think it and it's like, yeah, so take homes are gold for me. Usually, they don't have it, I asked for it. And if they don't have it, then I move on. Because I know I don't thrive or want to be in a place where people don't respect the way that I learn and the way that I like flourish in my code. And so definitely take all this are, for me.
Jenn:
Those are all such great points. One that the take home resembles the real work way more. And then to that you could ask for a take home. I think not enough people know that you can, you can do that you can ask for a take home, I certainly have interviewed at jobs where later I found out that other candidates got a take home just because they asked. And I just assumed that was the process. And like, I didn't realize I could ask for like a quote unquote, exception. And it's not really an exception. A lot of more companies are doing a thing where you can choose between the two to accommodate like what you want to do. I will say the only thing I don't like about take Homes is the time like either they put a time limit on you, which by the way is always bullshit. Ignore the time limit. Always ignore it. They are lying. "This should only take two hours." False. That is a false statement. No.
Erin:
Yeah. Or it's like, take up to four hours on this. And then when you're writing in the description, yeah, I spent about four and a half hours in reality. I was like, I spent 12 hours on this, I didn't sleep.
Jenn:
Yeah, totally four. Definitely. I definitely did four. Don't pay attention to when these commits were done. Yeah, it was four of them. [exhales] Sorry, I'm, I'm reliving so much pain as we talk. Where like, I, I did what they asked, I only spent X amount of time and then I would get rejected. Because they were like, oh, it wasn't fully X. Well, yes. There's only so much I can do with four hours of my day. Most people at their jobs, I don't even I think four hours is probably like max actual coding that I would do in a day before I get burned out. I do I wish there was a service where I could do one take home and submit it to multiple companies, though. Because every company wants to give you their own unique take home that will only take you four hours. Lies. You know, at the end, like how many of those can you reasonably do if you're also working full time? Especially if you do 12 hours? And also do you...do you tell them it was fun, even if it wasn't?
Erin:
Probably, I think "it was a good fun challenge". Or, you know,
Jenn:
I feel like you have to say something like that. You're like, "this was fun. I didn't mind doing it."
Erin:
"I really enjoyed it." Yeah, I mean, that is true. I probably do that a lot. It's just like a little bit of butter.
Jenn:
What a great challenge. I really enjoyed spending my evening and weekend doing this, instead of all the other things I could be doing. I had fun.
Erin:
Feel free to add it to your codebase already, it's all done for free. Here you are 12 hours of labor.
Jenn:
We should be paid for tech homes, you should definitely get paid for take homes, they take up a lot of your time they take up your weekends and your evenings. Sometimes I will pick an in person coding challenge if I really like the company, but I have too many take homes on my plate or I'm burnt out from it. And I just kind of cross my fingers and hope it goes well.
Erin:
Yeah, and sometimes it's great practice. Yeah, I know when to fail. This will like why not like let's try out and at least I'm learning to get better at this. So
Jenn:
One one thing that I almost always tell people, which is that I plan to do some interviews that are just practice interviews. They're companies that you're not really sure About It could change if you went in there and you did well, and you really liked the people. Certainly Don't. Don't do it with anyone that you're absolutely not interested in. You need to have some bit of a drive to do it. But it absolutely helps with later interviews.
Erin:
I'd also add, but don't do your favorite company first. Do like two or three. Okay-ish ones, and then do your favorite.
Jenn:
Never do your favorite company first. It is never, it's not gonna go well, and never does. You're rusty, it doesn't matter how much you've been cracking that code interview, you know, cracking that code. It's not gonna go well, please don't do that. If you really love a company, you just wait till the end for them.
Erin:
Yeah. And if they want you, they'll wait too like any good relationship.
Jenn:
It's true. It's a relationship I have called interviewing, like a dating scenario before. But it's like your date, pulls up a whiteboard, and says, could you solve this algorithm for me while we're at dinner, and then maybe, you know, we'll be together. It's a bit of a it's a weird dating thing. But it is like dating. It is.
Erin:
And I'll even add to the dating metaphor is I always do interviews on Thursdays or Fridays. Because one, people just feel better on Thursdays and Fridays. So if they're interviewing me, they're not as like, Oh my god, it's Monday or Oh, my gosh, it's only Tuesday, though. Like, it's Friday. Like, I'm feeling good. So like, maybe I'll write a little bit nicer thing for this interviewer.
Jenn:
Oh, what a hack. What a hack we're learning here. Do it on a date night.
Erin:
Yeah, it's a date. So might as well make it a Thursday or Friday.
Jenn:
And then you go into the weekend with all of your interviews. And people are probably like, a little bit more relaxed, because they also like they're probably about to go out with friends or something that evening.
Erin:
Yeah. Or on an actual date. Yeah.
Jenn:
So they've got maybe good vibes coming. This is. That's fantastic. I had never thought about not scheduling on like a Monday because people are just sad.
Erin:
Yeah. Right. Everyone's sad on Mondays.
Jenn:
Particularly now. Particularly now people get real sad on Mondays and I love my job, but still some Mondays.
Erin:
So particularly now. No Monday interviews.
Jenn:
Okay, you heard it from Erin. No Monday interviews. Don't do that. You're setting yourself up already at a disadvantage.
Erin:
Yeah. Just try doing Thursday, Friday.
Jenn:
Okay, another question. And a really important one: being rejected for a role means you are less valuable as a developer, true or false?
Erin:
Oh, yeah, no.
Jenn:
A company saying no to you really has nothing to do with your actual worth as a person or a developer.
Erin:
Absolutely. It feels like it 1,000%.
Jenn:
Oh, it feels like it. Absolutely.
Erin:
It's like dating, you get dumped. The company broke up with you. It's like, we're no longer in contact. Like, I'm going to keep your number. But we're never going to call you like I'm gonna keep your resume.
Jenn:
Oh, yeah. They always say that, don't they?
Erin:
Yeah. But then it's like, and then you start to reflect on yourself of like, I'm not I guess I'm not that smart. I guess. I'm not a good engineer, when it's just one company. That wasn't a good fit. But that's the heart I think, essentially, this is like, the hardest part about interviewing is a rejection. Because it is soul crushing. Especially if you like hype up, you're like, "Oh, this would be my commute. This is like where I would eat for lunch." You know, like when you get that far in?
Jenn:
Going back to the dating metaphor. You meet someone, there's a spark. There's a spark and you're feeling like this could be it for you. And then they don't like you. What did you do wrong? Did you have something in your teeth? We don't know. Because often you don't know what you did wrong.
Erin:
Yeah, you asked for feedback and they like are ghosting you.
Jenn:
Ghosting is really hard from companies and very bad, very bad manners.
Erin:
Especially if you want to learn and grow and be better or if you really want to apply for the company, again, actually, the past two companies I've worked for I applied to twice. That's right. First time I I got rejected. But I still, at the time, respected the companies and wanted to work and knew like what they were doing, but it still hurts.
Jenn:
And sometimes it's it's actually for a good reason. I remember so you interviewed at the wing before I was there. And the only reason that they said no to you was because they needed someone really, really senior to come in and they had they just had no one Senior and that's what they needed. And that's fair. I've definitely been rejected from companies because I wasn't quite at the level that they needed. It felt shitty, but it was fair.
Erin:
Yeah. But then if you take a step back and think about it, if I were to get hired there, oh, you would have had no support Exactly. Like, there was no one above me to ask questions to like, I have to like, figure, figure it out when I was just two years out of a boot camp. Wouldn't you take a step back and think of it that way of like my life? Like, thank goodness, my life wasn't miserable. Like, at least someone knew that this wasn't good timing.
Jenn:
Yeah, sometimes when you get rejected, it's actually someone looking out for you. Which is a strange sort of feeling. It's hard to also think that way when you get rejected because you just assumed that you did something wrong. But it could just be not a good fit. Not right now. This person knows that you need something else at the time.
Erin:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Oh, do you have like a vent buddy? Or like a hype person?
Erin:
Oh, I have a playlist.
Jenn:
Oh, you have a playlist?
Erin:
Yes.
Jenn:
Tell me more. Tell me more.
Erin:
One time I just tweeted out on Twitter. I was like, I need some like, before interview like pump up beats like, I've just I've been doing like so many interviews lately. I just need to be happy. And like, people sent me like, incredible. And I'll share it with you incredible pump up beats.
Jenn:
Yes, send it I will put it in the show notes.
Erin:
Oh, it's like, the "Eye of the Tiger" is like one of them. There's, it's great. Like, there's a lot of Britney Spears. I mean, it's pumps you up so that I don't really like chat with a person.
Jenn:
How do you handle when you're not feeling so great, like when you don't need to get hyped up. But you just need to be less sad about like a rejection or an interview didn't really go very well, oh God, or you're waiting, you're waiting for the response.
Erin:
Other than, like, constantly checking your email. I think, for me, what really helped, at least the second time was the way I prioritize my day when I was applying for jobs. So this is what I got laid off from the wing, and had an abundance of time at home because COVID and I needed a job. So I really, for me, what works really well is time blocking. So I would say from like eight to noon every day I would apply for jobs, do interviews, because I'm a morning person and I there's like a form of that time. And I talk really all the time. And so for those four or five hours, I would just do that. And then on the second block of my day, I would do like really fun things to me, and things that I'm good at. So I think I'm really good at baking and cooking food. So on the second half of the day, that's how I would cope with like, I had a really crappy interview in the morning, I'm going to do something that I know that works and that I know that satisfying, like kind of fills that I'm worthless gap in you.
Jenn:
Oh my god, I love this.
Erin:
For me, it works really well.
Jenn:
You're You're This is you're describing a thing that I try to get people to understand, which is that when you're going through a rejection or something that went bad, you do have feelings of worthlessness, and you have to then go do something that will fill like you said that gap. If you feel worthless, you have to go do something that will make you feel worthy. Again, that's what you're doing. That's amazing. You got to accomplish something like whether it's a workout or like I got so obsessed with sewing, like I would just sell masks. And I'd be like, I'm gonna sell 20 mess right now. I do remember you on Twitter sewing a lot, which is one of my hobbies, too, and also how I gain back some of my like, No, I'm actually like a creative person that can build things.
Erin:
Yeah, I mean, you kind of just have to go back to your roots or like, make some new root stuff. Like, what? for you as a person, like, genuinely makes you happy. And like makes you feel like you're good at something and you're just doing a completed thing. This is so emotionally healthy.
Jenn:
I want you to know, you figured out like a very emotionally healthy way to deal with this in a way that I think a lot of us could really benefit from.
Erin:
It does come from a lot of dark places. So it took me a while to figure out like, Oh, this banana bread, this perfect loaf of banana bread. makes me so happy. Like,
Jenn:
Oh, now you're making me hungry. Can you can you mail me some banana bread? Thank you.
Erin:
Yes. Well, I have variations of what kinds you would like because I've had a lot of time. But anyways, yeah, it takes a while to figure out one, like what does complete you and makes you feel like you're worth it and worth something. But it also, you have to realize, like when it's like I need, like, snap out of it like this is like you mentioned like, this is not me. I need to like, bake some cookies. I need to sell a mask, I need to make a wood project. I don't know.
Jenn:
Did you already have this emotionally healthy coping mechanism when the layoffs happened at The Wing? I wasn't at The Wing when the layoffs happened. But I hadn't. It hadn't been very long since I left the company. I got a message that they were happening. You were unfortunately one of the people caught up in that. Let's talk a little bit because I think especially right now, during this a lot more people have been getting laid off and dealing with the feelings that come with that.
Erin:
Yeah, it's definitely heartbreaking. I think my dark "no job" period though, was between MLS and The Wing. I also moved across the country. So I moved from New York to California. And just everything was new. New city. So like looking for a job. I just - I feel like I went about it the all the wrong. All the wrong things here. So let me just list them off for you. I got too attached. So I found one company loved them. I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is my commute. Go hop on BART.
Jenn:
You had that spark.
Erin:
I had the spark. And then the spark dies with one little email. And I would do that. But when I was applying I would - what is it? I don't know. It's not serial dating. What is it when you date more than one person at a time?
Jenn:
Uh, dating?
Erin:
Normal dating?
Jenn:
You don't commit right away.
Erin:
Okay, well, I am a committer. I would commit to my first person and then stick with that person and not date anyone else. So that was my mistake is that I needed to keep dating around. I needed to keep applying to other companies and not get attached to the first one that like popped in my inbox. Keep your options open.
Jenn:
There are more there are more fish in the sea as they say.
Erin:
Absolutely. And I hate the same but I'm going to say it anyways is "gotta keep the ball rolling."
Jenn:
Oh, God.
Erin:
I know right? Old woman. But it's true. Like, you gotta you just gotta you gotta keep moving. Like, I think the first three months of looking for a job I like I wasn't dating around. And I needed to keep doing that. And so it was just a lot of like a huge roller coaster like yes, this is it. And then I crash if it didn't work out. And so fast forward to got a job with The Wing. I knew I was on the chopping block for the layoffs, because I was the only remote engineer on the west coast.
Jenn:
You were also one of the newer hires, and they tend to be unfortunately, part of layoffs.
Erin:
Absolutely. So it was just easy. I was easy. You know, like, she's, she's one of the 50% that were were laid off.
Jenn:
Yeah, it was a big big layoff.
Erin:
It was I like remember getting the phone call. And I was like, when I first got that I saw like the strange number. I was like, this is it. This is it. And I like remember, like pacing around the room. And I'd like answer and I didn't cry. And I was like very professional. But then after it's just like the rejection, it feels like a rejection. But it was just so much going on at that time. So getting laid off. And it's been held it was nobody really knew what to do and what was going on. And a ton of layoffs were happening. And so I remember for a few days, I was just like, sad. But also, like ready, like, because the last time I had like my air table, I had my rating system. I have great outlet on Twitter, where I can utilize and increase my network. And so since I already had everything kind of like geared up from the past, this time, it was like, let's do this dating around and applying to a lot of places. So it just gets better with those gaps in between for me. I just like learn from past era and like, nope, don't not just one kick go into a couple more and was able to get a job within I think four weeks.
Jenn:
Oh wow.
Erin:
Really great. Yeah.
Jenn:
And you got to I believe you picked up with a company that you were interviewing with them somewhat around the time that you were also interviewing at The Wing. But the processes like just didn't line up. So you came back to them, right?
Erin:
Yeah, I interviewed at ConvertKit I think it was before. And then I think they just ended up being somewhat more experienced on a different team. They were super great. I really liked them. So I kept them on my like, little spreadsheet and like, brought them over to my new one, and then saw that they were hiring again and applied and just worked out swimmingly, and perfect. it's weird to say that, like, sometimes you work at companies where you think it's great. But then you work for a company that's like...
Jenn:
No shade on The Wing. But yeah, you were like, you were like The Wing is great. And then you got laid off. You're like, oh, sad. Okay, but here's this new job. And you're like, Whoa, why did why was I even with that other company?
Erin:
Yeah, that happens. Here's another thing that I hate out. All these old woman saints are coming out right now. But like, "it's a blessing in disguise". When I got laid off because just like the opportunities I've had now, and for me for right now. It's exactly what I need. And so when you do get laid off, it is terrible, but it works out.
Jenn:
Sometimes it can be ultimately, a better thing for you. It can it can release you from a situation you didn't even know you wanted to be out.
Erin:
Yeah, exactly. "A blessing in disguise."
Jenn:
Oh, how about "one door closes, another one opens"?
Erin:
Yeah, that's good.
Jenn:
We'll just keep keep thinking of these old sayings that nobody uses anymore. A blessing in disguise. Oh, ok. You are interviewing them just as much as they are interviewing you. True or false?
Erin:
That's like a mind switch. You have to get into I think, when you first like when I was first interviewing, like for my first ever engineering job. I didn't know that. I didn't know anything about that. I just would take any job that would get Oh, same. Yeah.
Jenn:
Same. And and by the way, if you are interviewing for your first role, and that's how you feel. And that's what ends up ends up happening. Sometimes you just have to do it. You just have to get the title, the first role, and then you can move on from there. It is really tough.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely. You got to come prepared. So they come prepared with questions. You better come by here. But there are questions. I have a list that I ask every company that I can share with you as well. And they're just like, killer questions. They're like sneaky questions that you can learn about the company. So like, asking, like, what do you value most in your company? or How would you describe diversity on your team? Like, it makes them feel awkward, like some of these are awkward questions to ask. But if they respond in an awkward way, then it's not a good fit.
Jenn:
In particular, that diversity question.
Erin:
Let me tell you a little story about that one. That's a good one.
Jenn:
Oh, I love stories.
Erin:
So this was just like some. I don't know. I don't even know what they did. small company. I -
Jenn:
Don't even remember, all I remember is how much they fucked up this one answer.
Erin:
So much. So I asked him, I was like, what's the diversity on your team? And are you looking to change? And he goes, What do you mean about when I mean, diversity? I was like, Oh, so like, who you have representing your team? Like I wanted him to define it to see if that is. That is sneaky of you. Yes. I know. It's bad, but good. Oh, it's good.
Jenn:
It's not bad at all. It is just straight up good. What does diversity mean to you?
Erin:
Yeah. Yeah. Watch out. You interview Jenn or I in the future. It's coming. So I asked him and his he was silent for a while. There's just a lot of phone call. And then you said, Well, we have a couple white guys. Standard. The female Oh, V male, female woman, a female, female, and some, some Asians. I was like, in my mind, I was like, Wow. Okay, then then I just like knew, like that was such a huge red flag. They wanted me to go on to the second round. But I said, I found interest in other places. And he actually emailed me back the next day, where he said, I was really struck by the question that you asked, and I went to my CEO and wanted to know what his views and like opinions on it were and he sent me like this huge paragraph back Have what the CEO would have said and things like that. So I think it did help. I hope it helped their interview process, but it helped.
Jenn:
Helped them actually consider that this is a value to some candidates.
Erin:
Yeah. That I think I wrote about that story on one of my blog posts where I have interview red flags that I look for.
Jenn:
you have a fantastic article on red flags that you experienced firsthand from companies. And it's, it's, it's very hard to know what those are, until you have gone through the process and maybe even made a mistake by joining a company that you shouldn't have.
Erin:
I should point out that like everyone has their own definition of what a red flag is. And these are just a list of mine.
Jenn:
That one question about what is the diversity of your team? What does your team look like? I have asked that multiple times over the years, I think it was pretty early on after maybe my first or second job that I started to ask that question you get you get a little bit more like ability to ask those questions when you have more opportunities in, you know, play. And I do remember it narrowing down where I was going to work, because people were unprepared to answer that question, which meant they hadn't thought about it, which meant their team likely wasn't diverse. Or they would say something like, like the female thing. And I was like, no, no thank you. Please don't refer to us like we're a species, the female of the species. Very weird.
Erin:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I also think sometimes it's maybe maybe lost me like roles, which is fine. In the end, you know, if it did, there are certainly people who don't like you asking that question, or making any sort of joke about it. I interviewed at a company for a software engineering position. And they were showing me around the office. And it was it was two white men who were interviewing me. And I think they were it was a really small startup at the time. So they were pretty much the team. And they took me to a room where the marketing team was, and they were like, here's the marketing team, and the room was just full of women. And I made the joke: Oh, this is where you keep the women? I don't think they liked it. I don't think they liked that joke.
Erin:
It's a good joke though.
Jenn:
It's a good joke. But no, I don't think that would have worked out anyway. But I do think that didn't help me.
Erin:
I mean, then it's not a good match. That's just,
Jenn:
especially if you don't like my sense of humor. It is not a good, good match.
Erin:
Yeah, you don't laugh at my jokes. I'm not. No.
Jenn:
I need people to laugh at my jokes. Yeah. Requirement.
Erin:
Required.
Jenn:
Yeah. Okay, so I will, we'll start, we'll start to wind it down. Even though we could talk about this for a very long time. So a lot. I could do multiple shows with just you talking about this. I got more if you want to. I do. And maybe maybe we will schedule like a follow up. Because I do think people are gonna really enjoy hearing about this, especially from your perspective, you have such great advice. I would love to have you on again to talk about this again. Because there's so much we didn't cover. Absolutely. Okay. My last question, or my last Boolean, interview style question is, you should only interview when you're absolutely certain you want to leave your current company, true or false, or false.
Erin:
Unless you work for like local government, you can get laid off at any time. And especially now in these times of COVID. You just need to be prepared. Or even if something happens in all your favorite best people. And while you're at a company, leave the company, and then you're still there. It's just time. And so those moments can happen so quickly, and you need to be prepared. What I do now is anytime something sounds so conceited, but anytime anyone says something good about me at work, or all the accomplishments I do, or I learned something new, I've just throw it in a note. And so eventually, I know I'm going to add that to my resume.
Jenn:
You're like prepping as you go for like, what your resume will look like the next time.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely. I often have people saying that they do an interview once a month, just to like, keep them on their toes.
Jenn:
Once a month. Sounds like a lot that would that would stress. Yeah, but I agree with the sentiment behind it.
Erin:
Yeah. Again, let's bring it back to dating. It's like if you haven't dated in two years, you don't know what's new. You know, how they do it now like,
Jenn Creighton 44:50
How they do it now. It's changed. We don't do it the same, though. That's true. Because I don't know how dating apps work.
Erin:
Yeah, exactly. Like have you heard of "kitten fishing"? It's when you like, make yourself look younger, I believe, like with their images, like instead of catfishing, it's like kitten fishing.
Jenn:
Oh, I get it. How clever.
Erin:
So it could be like something along metaphorically like that could be in this new software engineering, interview land and you're just getting like blindsided and it could take you a year. And by that time you're like, absolutely hating life in your current position. So I haven't updated my resume since my new position. But I do have a list of things that are like all of a sudden the company ended or something terrible like that. But I think you should always be expecting something.
Jenn:
Always be on your toes, danger at any moment. never feel comfortable. No, that's not what we're saying. You're just saying, Don't think that what you're where you're currently at is just where you're going to be forever. And sometimes sometimes dip your dip your toes in other waters. This is where the metaphor for dating does break down. Because if you were to do this in a long term relationship, and you have not okayed this with your partner, then you're cheating on them. It's not the same thing with companies though. You can you can dip your toes in other waters and check out what's going on, you might find out that you are actually ready to leave your company or you might find out what you have is really good and you want to stay there.
Erin:
I was thinking of a metaphor of like you love this one type of wine. And you just like, like me, there's this one wine called Poppy at Trader Joe's. It's like $12. I love it. I have to like it's stolen. I go there, I buy a bottle. But like, sometimes I want to try something else. So I'll grab a new, a new little, a different kind of wine. And maybe I like it a lot better than Poppy and no longer get Poppy anymore. I'll get this new other one. But I think you have to be open to knowing that like, Poppy can change or the job can change and just be prepared. Keep track of your accomplishments, I think is a big thing that will help.
Jenn:
Yeah, and if something interesting comes your way. Please don't feel like you can't explore it. You You should. When I was actually at the wing. I kind of knew I was gonna leave but I thought I would leave later. And then Apollo came up. Suddenly. I was like, yeah, I'm I'm gonna talk to this company. And I'm so so glad that I did. So happy that I did.
Erin:
Yeah, it's like "a blessing in disguise". Bringing it back to corny sayings.
Jenn:
Full circle to old lady sayings. A blessing in disguise. I think we will - we'll leave it there. Erin, thank you for joining us. So happy we did. We will probably do this again. Thank you.
Erin:
Absolutely. Anytime.
Jenn:
Again, Erin, thank you for being here. This conversation was wonderful. To everyone listening. Make sure you check out the show notes on how to follow Erin and her work. I'll see you next week.
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